Beyond the Darkness - For Those of You Who Asked

[queenoftheskies]

WARNING!!!!

I started this post as a response to questions people asked and it kind of turned into a rant or at least a tossing out of things that I'm trying to figure out about writing this particular speculative fiction piece.

After my post last night, quite a few people asked me what other reviews said about the Chapter 1 & 2 combination I have posted several different places.

A few of you mentioned that you didn't see that particular review at OWW. It's NOT at OWW. I do have Beyond the Darkness - Ch 1 & 2 up multiple places and have a couple of people who have read it outside of that.

I think devinharris is the only person who has read the entire novella. And, no, she didn't have any of the bad things to say. (Hi, Sis!)

I have maybe 11-12 reviews/critiques/opinions on the first chunk (Chapters 1 & 2). None on Chapter 3, which is posted only at Quill N Ink right now. I MIGHT put Chapter 3 up at OWW today. Haven't decided. Trying to deal with writing things in my head first and I guess I fear that if I get another huge disappointment, it'll hamper my ability to deal with this. Of course, I might get brave. One never knows.

What I expected from reviews (because I'm my own worse critique and because I know I'm not a good writer) was that I expected people to laugh at the idea and I expected people to tell me that my writing sucks.

Nobody told me that my writing sucked. Some people liked it, which gave me some warm fuzzies, I'll admit. Some people didn't comment on the writing at all, so those opinions could go either way and I'm trying NOT to read anything into that.

Nobody came right out and laughed at the idea. I did get the one comment that it wasn't marketable, though. I got another comment that said they weren't sure something like that was marketable and that it sounded more like a manga idea. I got a third that said it was more of a YA piece because it MENTIONED anime and manga and, of course, only kids like those, right?

So, the seed of doubt is in my mind. What if I'm writing crap? What if all my fears are founded and I really am?

Anyway, other comments.

There were lots and lots of things that were not mentioned twice across the range of critiques. Some ranged from personal preferences of the reader to the fact that they were NOT part of my target audience. One person, for example, hadn't ever even heard of anime and manga, one person thought it was a waste of time for Koji to be interested in that...personal type preferences.

Most people liked Koji and his best friend, Hiroshi, and said the chemistry between them worked. That made me happy, cause they just clicked when I wrote them. :)

Many people said that Koji's dad was unrealistic and those kinds of things don't happen. Uh, guess what? They DO! Koji's dad was a combination of culture and also people I really know. The verbal abuse is very common. Ask me why I don't believe in my writing and don't think I'm good enough. Ask my son, who has a 4.0 average in college why he doesn't think he's good enough. (And, why I left my husband.) Ask any number of people who have undergone verbal abuse at the hands of parents and/or spouses what it does to a person. (And, no Koji's dad was not based on my experiences, personally. I just know it can happen.)

Which leads into two other complaints I received.

Several peeople said Koji was a big boy and should fight back. One said he should beat up his dad. These people are obviously NOT familiar with victims.

Another person said that Koji was unrealistic because us artistic types (writers, artists, musicians) NEVER got down on their dreams.

Welcome to the real world.

A couple of people mentioned that Koji was way too concerned with concert tickets when there were monsters running around. (More on the monsters down below.) And, after his dad had beaten him.

I admit that I probably need to pump up Faith, Hope and Love more and the fact that they're a phenomenon. More hype, more of the fact that they've been dying for these tickets forever.

However, only a couple of people actually got the fact that this was a big deal because Faith, Hope and Love are--SHOCK--part of the story. They were willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. These are the main characters in my novel series. (Not in their singing personas most of the time, of course.) These people affects Koji's life...and not just by their music.

I don't think I mentioned anything in the story that wasn't important at some point later in the story.

So, here's a question for you folks. (Anyone that made it this far.) When you read, how much do you want spelled out in advance for you? How much are you willing to trust the writer? And, do you believe that everything needs to be spelled out in the first chapter?

I write with the "plants" and "payoffs" system in mind. Maybe because I wrote sceenplays for so long. I don't know. But, Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 both have plants that will be paid off later...both with the mundane and the speculative in mind.

Probably the biggest consistent complaint that I got was that the first and second chapters had different feels to them. They said that the first had supernatural, specfic elements. The second was grounded in the real world.

I should point out, though, that there were at least three--maybe four--people that liked it that way and that seemed to get what I was doing.

The fact that other people didn't lets me know one of two things. Either I need to do some more work on Chapter 1, cause most people seem pretty good with Chapter 2. (And, I do have some changes in mind to fix it.) Or, I wait and see if Chapter 1 makes more sense to them after they read more. (IF they read more.)

For those of you who have read Chapter 1, if I tell you the following, does it make any difference on your opinion of what you read?

NOBODY realized that KOJI NEVER ACTUALLY SAW A MONSTER!!!!! Yes, I set up monsters. But, Koji didn't see one. The orbs he saw are NOT eyes and they're explained later when he finds himself back down there with someone else. Also, Koji spends some time chastising himself about his active imagination. A couple of people told me he spent too much time thinking. Do you, as a writer, spend time thinking about what you're going to write? Koji is combination writer/artist because he wants to write manga and create anime. He thinks about fantastic storylines a lot.

Did Koji see any monsters on the way back to Tokyo? No. For a reason. There was no monster there. Did he think there had been? YES! Will there be later? YES! Was there now? No. There was something strange, something he couldn't explain. It was NOT a monster.

My question is this. Do you think I actually need to have Koji think about not seeing any monsters on the way home and doubt what he experienced on the mountain?

As mentioned earlier, Faith, Hope and Love DO have purpose in the story. I don't want to spoil by mentioning who/what they are, but, to those of you who read, what would set them up better for you? And, make them seem less of a "coincidence" to the story. Or, do you think it's a case of the reader needing to read further before deciding that they're not needed?

I do have to admit that I got one review that wasn't particularly glowing. Especially from the perspective that they didn't think Chapters 1 and 2 went well together. HOWEVER...this particular gentleman got all the underlying themes and how things connected (especially the darkness) and it was soooooo AWESOME to see that somebody really got what I was trying to do in and beneath the framework of manga and monsters, you know? Because the title, itself, Beyond the Darkness, deals with the darkness and hopelessness of Koji's life and future as well as the darkness in the "chasm" and a more profound darkness that comes later in the story. One that Koji has to overcome and rise above...one that helps him learn to deal with himself and his problems and his dreams. And in overcoming the fantastic, he learns that he can deal with the real world and his hopes and dreams, too.

Oh, one thing that three or four people mentioned was that they thought this was a traditional fantasy piece at first because of the reference to "sacred mountain" and that it jarred them out of the story when Koji had a flashlight. I'm going to fix that.

I think he's going to be carrying a sketchbook and be up there (against direct orders) to sketch the abandon temple...instead of offering to the baby gods...which were going to be shown later, but which are NOT the monsters in question. They were a set up to come back to later in one of my novels that takes place in Japan. And, perhaps a set up across stories like that won't work.

You see, my entire point in posting this as a ROUGH draft was to see if it can stand alone, as a novella, on its own two feet, with all the unspoken background (that mostly being Faith, Hope and Love and what they do (other than just sing) or if it needs to be set in a novel, along with a follow-up short story that deals with Koji, Hiroshi, and another character that's introduced in Chapter 3.

Have I lost you completely now?

Probably. My brain works in strange ways. It has big, enormous, huge story arcs in it that span huge amounts of time.

Maybe I'm just nuts. Maybe I write crap.

I don't know.

But, I do know that, in each character I create, I find a life and a story to tell. And, those characters come to life for me and I love writing about them...whether there's a market for my material or not.

And, on that, I've probably ranted more than enough, left out half the things I meant to say...and I've got to go to work. Boooo! Hissssss!

And, yes, I've probably left out some of the comments folks had on the piece, too.

Everybody have a good day!

Comments

[kmkibble75.livejournal.com]

How much do I like to be told in a story?

Just as much as I need to get by. I don't like hvaing it laid out for me like food on a platter -- I want to have to dig and search for clues to collect. I don't want to have things hidden from me, but I don't want my intelligence insulted, either. I like to see information presented as it would be in real life, which usually doesn't come with a huge backstory every time someone looks at something.

Victims

[madwriter.livejournal.com]

You're right about people not understanding a true victim's mentality. Often they become a victim, or stay one, because they don't think they can fight back for whatever reason. It's completely psychological; there's nothing physical about it.

Case in point: One of the close friends of a friend of mine was a blackbelt in karate--and she was also raped by her boyfriend. Theoretically she should have been able to snap him like a twig, but he had enough control over her mind to attack her without any (immediate physical) consequences.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

I've also noticed this trend recently (speaking only of the OWW, in my case) of readers wanting everything spelled out for them. Not all reviewers, maybe not even a majority, but enough to make me curious and concerned. Some people have no sense of context, and want to be lead around a story by the nose. I would always rather try to intuit than have unnecessary exposition dropped on my head.

As for the FH&L thing, that's probably a matter of writer points/reader trust. Some readers are trusting and will wait to see what an author has in mind, instead of getting their hackles up at the first sign of a tangent. While I didn't guess that FH&L would be important plot-wise, they seemed to mean enough to Koji to warrant their inclusion.

Keep 'shopping the story, and you'll probably pick up some smart critters (by that I mean ones who can read context and subtext and pick up on characterization and theme). Just ignore the other ones. :)

[mmerriam.livejournal.com]

Given Koji's notebook, I thought it fairly obvious that Faith, Hope, and Love were going to be important. Now that you mention it, Koji did not actually see a monster, did he. My brain simply supplied the monster from context. I'd call that good writing. I thought the setting was fine. It took me awhile to get into it, because it is not something I normally read, but it worked. As for Koji's father, I understand what you're saying about victimizers and victims. I felt he was one dimensional at this point, but I hope you will show us more of the why the father acts so nasty later. I don't need everything spelled out for me at the begining. What would be the fun in that? Where's the mystery if you what's going on from the start?

[jmeadows.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking you have critburn. Ouch!

It's hard to seperate the good reviews from the bad and know who to ignore and who to pay attention to. There's one reviewer I keep having to shake my head at who reviews me a lot because this person just never seems to get anything. They (singular they) want everything spelled out for them, and honestly, I'm not willing to give that. It's no crime to ask your readers to be smart and figure things out.

I think the trouble (for me) with the two chapters and their difference was that I didn't feel like I had a good transition from one to the other. It seemed abrupt, and I can understand Koji is pretty much entering another world.. I guess what I'm asking for is a reminder of the first chapter. Hints that he actually remembers what happens. ;)

I never had a question FH&L would come back in (I'm a pretty trusting reader), especially when he made such a big deal about the tickets. I'm not sure how, but I get the feeling they're going to be part of his character development.

J, keep writing what you're writing. It's clear you love the world and the characters, so don't give up. Please try to remember some critters are dumb and they won't get things no matter how clear you try to make them.

*hugs*

[ammepyre.livejournal.com]

I haven't read your stuff - so I can't comment on it. However, I can answer some of the general questions. *grin*

If I can get into the characters and they feel believable and hold my interest - I'm willing to wait for the payoff of plants laid out in the story. The sad thing is, some of the same people asking for more immediate gratification would probably feel, if you did it that way, that the story was then too tell-y or too pat.

As far as critiques go - you'll always have people who don't quite "get" what you're trying to do for various reasons. Either they don't read the genre normally, they don't really understand the key issues you're trying to express, or they just don't have an affinity for your writing. Any critique should be taken with a grain of salt. It's only when something is consistently mentioned - among the good ones and the luke warm ones - that you should really take a hard good look at it. Otherwise what you take from critiques should be things to help you with your vision of the story.

Most published authors will tell you to write the story you want to. Worry about publication after the fact.

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

Very good advice.

Sometimes, the very opinionated people are very difficult to ignore. The ones that are so SURE they're right.

When I don't really know anything about them and their writing, it's hard to tell whether they have the experience to know what they're talking about, or whether they're just trying to chalk up critiques in order to be able to post their own work.

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Jodi!

Don't you wonder why some people even bother to crit? Sometimes, I can't help but wonder if they're just flying through pieces in order to get the required number of reviews to post their own stuff.

They don't seem to want to be helpful. They just want you to know they're better than you are, you know?

Maybe I'm just tired and overly sensitive, but I can't imagine telling anyone that there's no market for what they write...even if it's really, really BAD.

And, I think I'd rather somebody told me that it was really, really bad. If that's the case, I can work really, really hard to try to make it better.

But, for someone to say there's no market for it implies that nobody would want to read it and there's not even any sense trying to be a better writer.

Unless, of course, I wanted to conform. :(

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

I'm the same way.

Sometimes, I think people crit novel/novella chapters like they crit short stories. They expect everything to be resolved in one chapter.

Sigh...

Re: Victims

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow, that's so sad.

But, true.

It's hard to get out of a victim situation. I lived with an abusive mom for 25 years (my dad was great, but didn't do anything). Finally moved from Tennessee all the way to California to get away from it. She's the reason I'm so down on my writing. She spent lots of time telling me how childish and stupid it was, how I could never be good enough, and how sci-fi/fantasy were tools of the devil.

Then, lived with an abusive husband for 13 years cause I had kids and just didn't know how to get away. Up and moved one day while he was at work from CA to Las Vegas.

Moved back a year later, said, "I'm not going to be afraid any more," and I haven't been since. (9 years ago.)

But, I guess people who haven't been there or don't know people who've been there don't understand, huh?

Re: Victims

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Oh, nice icon, by the way. I've been meaning to tell you, but haven't had time lately to comment on lots of posts. :)

[kmkibble75.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, I think people crit novel/novella chapters like they crit short stories. They expect everything to be resolved in one chapter.

Not sometimes... prett much all the time. Not every chapter needs a hook, and not every issue in the chapter needs to be resolved. Keep that in mind when you're reading reviews, and remember that while the critters mean well, you're the only one who can see the whole picture right now. I usually keep comments like that on the side until I have the whole story out there, then ask someone who has read the whole thing. They're pretty much the best judges.

It's just something we have to accept as chapter-posters.

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

Do you think people expect an entire story to be resolved in one chapter like a short story?

Sometimes, I wonder if they just need points to post their own work and aren't really interested in reading and helping other writers. (I'm not just talking about OWW here.) I've had comments that people made that were specifically explained in the story or comments that had nothing to do with my story, and I wonder if they even read what I wrote.

I don't mind harsh critiques. Anything that helps me learn is good. But, just to tell me my story has no market or could only be read by middle school students because it mentions anime is kind of like a slap in the face.

Or, I'm over reacting. I don't know. I'm just frustrated because I really want to learn what I'm doing wrong and grow as a writer. And, a lot of comments I'm running into are NOT designed for that purpose.

Now, of course, it makes me really want to think about how I give critiques. Am I that bad? I don't want to be. I want to be helpful.

It's a lot to think about.

[queenoftheskies.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!

It's so nice to know that people understand. :)

[pet-hypothesis.livejournal.com]

When you read, how much do you want spelled out in advance for you? How much are you willing to trust the writer? And, do you believe that everything needs to be spelled out in the first chapter?

This is something a lot of people have already commented on, but I wanted to add my bit :)

I think that when people are reading a published work, they're willing to take a lot more on trust. They just assume that what they're reading will be relevant, that the author knows what they're doing. When you're critiquing, though, you just don't know how competent the author really is, and so you're a lot less likely to take things on faith.

I'd say definitely don't spell things out, the criticism of being too obvious is a lot worse than being too subtle.


BTW, I haven't read any of your stuff, but this sounds really cool :)

[jmeadows.livejournal.com]

I do wonder sometimes, and I've decided they just don't know what they're talking about. Which, I know, sounds very not trusting and pesemistic on my part, but for goodness sakes!

NEVER CONFORM! :D

Seriously, there's a market for everything. Write what you want to, polish it up, and THEN worry about whether you think it will fit in with the current fad. (and fitting in is yet another topic, because some of us want to fit in, and others want to stand out. :D)

[ammepyre.livejournal.com]

Ah. But it's the ones who are that sure are often very much the ones in the wrong.

There is no right or wrong ways to write or plot or characterize. Even grammar rules can be broken - as long as you're aware of the proper rule and are doing it for the effect.

[replicantpris.livejournal.com]

Janice,
having read only chapter one and two... I LIKE that they're so different. Because - chapter one gives you this sort of far away feel, like it's not set in your world. And when you find out you are - oh, come on, Koji wasn't expecting the orbs, or the monster he thinks he sees. So, I think they fit together, because the fantasy/not our world feel of the first chapter sorta emphasizes, to me, any shock Koji might have felt at finding out things weren't as he thought...

Or I might be far, far too tired.

And anyone who tells you that this isn't marketable is talking out there ass - I'm sure that a lot of people who wrote really famous stuff think the same. The guy who directed the movie Twelve Monkeys - or whatever it was called - did it using still pictures because he said it would NEVER work as a live action film. (Okay, wow, don't know if that fit...)

And yes - I agree with being too obvious is worse than being too subtle. And I'll tell you why I think that - because if you spell it out, oh, he didn't see a monster, and make him question it, I'll think you're treating me like I'm stupid. And if you're a bit subtle about it, well, it's a nice surprise in retrospect, isn't it?

Now, of course if you're FAR too subtle - that's the problem. But I think that's really what godawful writers do - or perhaps mediocre ones who just have with subtlety (and I'd be talking about me, not you there.) I struggle constantly with how much to put it - middle grounds have never been my friend in anything. It sorta makes me sensitive to it in other people. And btw - I'm one of the people who did pick up on Love, Faith, and Hope, and I think that's due to my subtely defiency - I immediately picked up on them basically as soon as you mentioned them - the tickets I believe were the first mention, but like I said, tired, and mind muddling details. My first two guesses was either they'd get the tickets, and something important would happen at the concert, or they wouldn't get the tickets, and it would affect the story in a major way - and the lives of Koji and Hiroshi.

Let's see - the father is fine, people talking out their asses again, same for Koji fighting back. Next time they tell you that - tell them to look at Dorothy Allisons Trash. In one of the stories, a boy in the family tries to teach two girls - who have been victims of rape - to fight back. One curls into a ball and one doesn't move, even as he moves in to kick and slap them around. The narrator of the story notes that the girls had learned if they fight back, they die. Okay, yeah, Koji's a boy, and big, but if he's being abused by his father -I can't remember if his father is bigger or not - someone he's supposed to look up to, and respect, well, what's he going to do? Also, I don't know much about Japanese culture, but, uh, at least I know respect for your parents is a BIG deal. I wonder how much social hot water Koji would be in if he fought back, even if he was being hit first.

(Continued in next post)

[replicantpris.livejournal.com]

Okay, this is long, so one last comment. I've been delaying it so I don't do get too defensive about it. Yes, I assumed Koji saw a monster - but I'll tell you why. You have a lot about the orbs as/looking like eyes. You have Koji afraid something is going to come after him. You have him see what he thinks are evil spirits flying up. You mention a lot about baby gods. (I'm not going to comment heavily on changes since I haven't seen them yet.) Point is - you have a lot to indicate that he DID see a monster, without coming out a saying this.

I like it. Because, if it turns out to be not a monster, which I heavily think it might after your rant, it would be a teeny tiny hint that I would've missed, gone back, and laughed over how clever you'd been. Remember Buffy dreaming about Faith - Faith gives the exact date when Dawn's created. I didn't catch that even AFTER the show had ended. I didn't catch it until someone else pointed it out in an essay. Bloody brilliant. And I have a feeling that you set yourself up for a brilliant hidden nugget, but you want to change it to something more obvious because of what people are going to say. Don't, please, please don't... By settig it up like, oh, yeah, definately monster, but being really, really subtle about him not seeing one - you're setting up a traditional monster story that could have a potentially great kick, and twist (I call it a Joss). And I have a feeling you're going to do that, because you are one of the most TALENTED and creative writers I know. You're going to Joss us all, and so many people are going to love every step of the way.

Okay, was that long enough for you, Janice? It was sooo damn long, live journal made me post it in two bits...

~Frenzy ;

Chiming in Late Again

[java-fiend.livejournal.com]

J - Okay, the "no-market" idiot aside, because that person is just completely clueless....

First off, I don't like things completely spelled out for me. I like the twists and turns that stories often take that keep me guessing. Having everything spelled out from the get go kills any suspense in a piece. I think that you are putting stock in a lot of comments that can and should be discarded. I know that it's frustrating when people don't seem to get what you're doing or make comments that seem based more on their personal preferences than the piece itself. But I think that you have a habit of letting yourself feel intimdated and inferior if somebody comes across with strong opinions. We've talked about it at length, so I apologize to be bringing it up again. However, I think it's entirely relevant here. Just because somebody comes across with strong opinions, it doesn't necessarily mean that they know what they are talking about. I can sit here and talk very passionately and very persuasively about what a great president GW Bush is, but we'd all know that I was just full of shit, right? The point is, we all have opinions and theories about your piece. Only YOU know your piece inside and out. You have the answers, all we have are speculation and questions. Having a lot of different eyes looking at your piece is an invaluable tool to have. As I've mentioned to you, I think that everybody brings something different to the table. It's incumbent on us, as the writer, to sort through all of the comments we receive and filter out what can and can't be useful to us. No matter how personal our writing is to us, the *only* way to do ourselves and our work justice is to take a step back and look at all of the feedback and how it can or can't apply to our piece with an objective, clinically detached eye.

The comments that it's a waste of your time to develop Koji's interest in anime and manga is just ridiculous. And judging by your comments, you know it's ridiculous and can easily be tossed into the rubbish bin. I think on some level, you *do* know what is and isn't useful to your work but for whatever reason, you won't let yourself toss useless comments away. You've said repeatedly that people know more than you and whatnot. That may be true (maybe) but what they don't know is your piece. You know that and you know what's best for it. But you do have this way about you of letting any negative comments get under your skin. It's almost like you *want* to believe them, that you *want* to believe that you're a bad writer. (which you're not) Why is this? You received a lot of positive feedback in your critiques and I know you say that they make you feel good, but why can't you form the basis of your revisions on the critiques that *do* have some validity instead of dwelling on the negative?

The person who said that the mention of manga and anime moves your piece into a YA category is just plain wrong. Way off base. And I know that you know that's wrong, so why you let it get to you is beyond me. Manga and anime have become a huge part of mainstream pop culture. To say that mentioning them makes your piece a YA story shows that the are ignorant to the world around them. Because only kids like them? Please. Wouldn't that be like saying that if you mention a Happy Meal in your story, it turns it into a children's story because only children like them?

You're assuming that some of the negative feedback and inane comments reflect a problem on your part as the writer. Not necessarily true, Janice. Critiquers have their own shortcomings too. Nobody is *perfect* though some are better than others. You're going to have to decide what is valid and what isn't valid when you assess your critiques. Nobody knows your piece better than you. Not everything everybody says is *right* and you need to look at all commentary with a critical eye.

I don't mean to harp on you and I hope you don't take it that way. I know that you are a fantastic writer. And judging by all of the comments to your post, a lot of other people think you are too. Even the ignorant are merely trying to help you, J. But really, try to learn to not take everything to heart. It will only drive you nuts.